Thursday, October 25, 2007

PS3 misconceptions and spin

I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the ps3. They often mention how the ps3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin, and I'm often amazed at how potent this type of rhetoric proves to be. For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck. First, lets debunk a few common misconceptions:

"The PS3 is more graphically advanced than the 360"

Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance. Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power.

"Ok, fine, but the cell is like, super powerful"

In theory, sure, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors. You can probably find a way to split a few things off fairly easily - put the audio on one processor, animation on another; but generally the breakup is always going to leave several of the SPUs idle or underutilized. On top of that, it's usually not CPU speed that restricts the visuals in games - it's fill rate.

"Uh, Blue Ray!"

Great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the blue ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times, or god forbid if your streaming from disk, tighter constraints on the amount of data you can stream.

"But it's got a lot more space than DVD"

Ok, you got me there - it does have a lot more space, and there is the potential to use that to do something cool, but thats unlikely to be realized in any useful way. There are tons of compression techniques available for data and I'd personally rather be able to get my data faster than have more of it. Most developers who use the entire Blue Ray drive are doing it to work around other problems with the ps3 such as it's slow loading - for instance, in Resistance: Fall of Man, every art asset is stored on disk once for every level that uses it. So rather than storing one copy of a texture, you're storing it 12 times. If you took that entire game and removed all the duplicate data, it would likely fit on a DVD without any problem. They do this to speed up load times, which, as I pointed out before, are painfully slow on the ps3. So in this case, the extra space is completely wasted.

"Once developers figure out the PS3 they'll maximize the hardware and it will be amazing"

I suspect a small number of PS3 only developers will optimize the hardware to do something cool. However, this will be an exception to the rule, and will likely involved game designs that are specifically designed for the hardware and funded by Sony. If those will prove to be fun or not is another question.

Most of the performance centric research into the PS3 has been around making it easier for developers to get the same level of performance you get out of the 360 naturally. For instance, some developers are using those extra SPU's on the cell to prepare data for the rendering pipeline. Basically, they take the data they would normally send to the graphics chip, send it to an SPU which optimizes it in some manner, then send it to the graphics chip. So, once again we see an 'advantage' in hardware being used to make up for a disadvantage in another area - a common theme with the ps3. And this introduces an extra frame of latency into the equation, making controller response slower.

So, the common theme is this; developers must spend significantly more time and resources getting the PS3 to do what the 360 can already do easily and with a lot less code. Lets look at how this translates into practical realities for a moment:

Why the PS3 version often pails in comparison to the 360 version, and why exclusives often suck:

As outlined above, getting equivalent performance out of the PS3 requires a lot of work unique to the platform, and in many cases, even with all these tricks, you still won't see equivalent performance. Thus, many ps3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions. On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling.

The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future. These issues all stem from unbalanced hardware design, and any future hardware that is this unbalanced will likely be unbalanced in a completely unique way.

Finally, there's the problem of resources. Game Development is, at it's heart, a resource management challenge. Given finite resources, do I have these five engineers work on optimizing the PS3 version to look better, or do I use them to make the game play better and fix bugs? Do I change my design to fit with what the PS3 hardware does well, or simply run the game at a slightly lower resolution on the PS3 to make up for it? Developers striving to push the PS3 hardware have often sacrificed their game in the process.

This post might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches. Sony let their hardware be designed by a comity of business interests rather than a well thought out design that would serve the game development community. They are going to loose hard this round because of it, and I hope that in the next round they take lessons from this round and produce a more balanced and usable machine.

550 Comments:

At 11:56 AM, Blogger Dave Asbell said...

This post has been removed by the author.

 
At 11:58 AM, Blogger Dave Asbell said...

Amen brother... Amen.
The trouble with the PS3

 
At 9:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what would you know about it? all of harmoniax games looks like shit

 
At 9:16 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance. Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power."

so that is why bad looking games like halo 3 is only 640p on 360 and awesome looking games like uncharted is 720p on ps3? :lol

you have no idea what you're talking about

 
At 9:19 AM, Anonymous jaffe said...

"For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck."

What a classy guy. low fill rate = games suck. alert the presses!

 
At 9:23 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

your agenda:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8375961&postcount=65

 
At 9:29 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Getting data off the blue ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive."

Afaik the average speed on SL DVD´s is more or less the same as Blu-Ray. On dual layer DVD´s Blu-Ray has a slight advantage.

"Basically, they take the data they would normally send to the graphics chip, send it to an SPU which optimizes it in some manner, then send it to the graphics chip."

They take advantage of the Cell CPU, this is a good thing not a badt thing.

"The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future."

Yes and No, if you "thread" carefully you will gain speed on the 3 core cpu in the 360.

"but thats unlikely to be realized in any useful way".

Drakes fortune and Rachet and Clank takes up way more space than the 7GB you can store on a 360 DVD.
Maybe you shouldn´t use a launch game as evidence :-)

"The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360"
If you want to take advantage of the "fill rate" on the 360 you have to reduce the resolution on your games. Hello Halo 3, hello Grand Turismo HD 4 real :-)

I see some very fundemental flaws in your piece and that makes is seem like blatant trolling.

 
At 9:29 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quick! You must inform Infinity Ward about this before they release their excellent PS3 version of Call of Duty 4!

 
At 9:36 AM, Blogger Henning said...

I don't really know enough about the two platforms to comment on issues like fill rate and Blu-ray versus DVD performance, though I've heard some things that might dispute what you say here on these two counts. But you may be right, and I'll take that.

But you also said that "many ps3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions". The latter part just isn't true. Most PS3 games run at 720p. The ones that don't, run at 1080p. Very similar to the 360, except for the fact that a couple 360 games (like Halo3 and PGR3) actually run at LESS than 720p. There have been no known cases of PS3 games running at less than 720p.

 
At 9:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Playstation Home will compete with his new company, so the PS3 is his enemy at the moment. With this as the backdrop, it's hard to lend any credence to his technical arguments.

 
At 10:10 AM, Blogger Jason said...

Very interesting. I'd like to know what other developers have to say but I am sure they are generally not allowed to openly criticize a machine they work with. I am less interested in what random internet gamers who focus on Sony's first party lineup in their arguments have to say.

 
At 10:20 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As long as some devs are pumping out games of a calibre like Uncharted, or Call of Duty 4 (looks and runs as good if not better than the 360 version) etc. stuff like this rings very hollow. And is pretty laughable actually, with the comment about exclusives 'continuing to suck'. Uncharted and Ratchet & Clank are pretty much the best looking upcoming console games.

I also would love to know where some of the numbers in this blog post are coming from. I copied this to a friend of mine who works at Havok, and he told me to stop reading fanboy posts on message boards!

 
At 10:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally agree with your comments concerning the PS3 having certain hardware problems/issues. But then name me one games console ever released that didn't.
I just think your being overly harsh. It is clear that in terms of hardware design MS focused there energies on the GFX chip, whilst Sony focused there energies on the CPU. As a result each system has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages... What is clear based on the games released for both systems so far is that they are both capable of displaying fantastic graphics. In my opinion it is not the hardware that is the problem now, it's the imagination of the developers/publishers that needs upgrading.

 
At 10:37 AM, Anonymous Metalmurphy said...

Just looking for more hits on your blog or is this just an heads up for a shitty PS3 port of Rock Band?

Many developers have stated exactly the opposite (1st AND 3rd party), and they actually make games way more demanding of a system then Rock Band. Why should we trust you above them?

 
At 10:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

SO what you are saying is that it takes more effort and some understanding of the the Cell system to get the same or better play/graphics from the Ps3? Once again you only emphisize how game producers are LAZY and do NOT want to learn anything new. You can not deny it as that is what you stated.

 
At 10:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't like cell? What's the matter? Too DEEP for you?

 
At 10:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dumb rant! Reminds me of Gabe Newell. Sounds like he's mad about HOME as well. BOO HOO!

 
At 10:45 AM, Blogger coder.randomguy said...

I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. How can games like RFOM, Uncharted, R&C run so beautifully and at full 1080p and not his little game which let's face it, is not exactly a number cruncher AI wise. Its not even that this game has a lot of different scenes etc. I don't know what he's crying about.
As far as installed base goes, PS3 have already sold 5.6 mil. That's numbers before the 40GB price cut.

Whatever helps you sleep at night man.

 
At 10:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hes just a lazy coder. He wants to continue making games the size of Mario Bro. for Nintindo and charge 60 bucks for them.Quit being a lazy slob fatboy.

 
At 10:49 AM, Anonymous Kspraydad said...

If your attention to detail while programming is ANYTHING like what you have shown with your blog it is no wonder you had difficulty understanding it.

 
At 10:50 AM, Anonymous Jintoh said...

Whilst many of the points are obvious to many of us inside the industry, unfortunately for all faults it has it still has ways around them and like stated its just a matter of resources to work around them.

Resources are an issues but if your making specifically (exclusive) for the PS3 this issue whilst still important doesn't have as much of an impact as with a port.

I will agree however that the hardware isn't as effective to use as the 360 from the bat and cell structure is pretty damning to work with but its not something that can't be worked around (resources claim again).

I think it was a given we all knew the 360 GPU was better then the PS3 GPU (if only in certain respects) but they're are unique ways to work with the cell that are quite interesting (although they do cause slowdowns).

Also people are going to look at what you said about multiple processors and mis-interp it as cores, you should really have specified that cause most don't realize how the cell actually works and that the approaches to multi-core programming doesn't automatically apply (if at all really) to the cells design and in the grand scheme to work made in programming for multi-cores doesn't translate straight to cell at all.

Blu-ray is a touchie subject, in some respects its useful and others not. It helps many of the PS3 hardware bottlenecks however so this in essence is a good thing, the transfer speeds hold true until you push it onto the hard-drive which dramatically increases loads and streams, which is probably why sony included such a large hard-drive in the first place to supplement this flaw in blu-rays speeds but if the hard-drive isn't used then yes this is a extremely fundamental flaw.

I've notice the artists at my work enjoy the extra leg room with space restrictions with the format but cause of the hardware limitations on the PS3 this space doesn't translate to much if anything at all but maybe will in later life be useful.

I or You can't predict nothing in the long term in our industry, technology and software advances come high and unique to us on many occasions. Something I could do in three years could be impossible right now but doable then, its how it works.

As to people claiming exclusive games (uncharted, R&C) to the platform look and play nice thats because when you develop from the ground up for a platform you make everything around that platform and not for a porting reason, this gives you a ton of leg room that multi-platforms would never give you, thus you can do things whilst not cutting others in the process.

As to the call of duty 4 claim, you guys should realize that they built it from the ground up to be multi-platform, they made there engine structure different for the versions taking advantage of each of the consoles respective hardware so they wouldn't have trouble with the overall hardware issues whilst doing all the other technical and artist work.

Basically they nipped a bud in the butt before they started so they didn't have these troubles down the path.

Many are going to claim bias on you and probably even bash you for this blog but when your on the front line things are not so clean cut (we know more sure) as when sitting on the side lines watching, I'm surprised you didn't podcast or livecast however cause words generally hold no merit on the internet.

 
At 10:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In an ideal world we'd be able to filter these comments, hiding the hot air spouted by fanboys in defence of their chosen brand.

As for me I'm just going to nod silently in agreement with the main story.

 
At 10:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Haha - you can tell we've all come here via ps3fanboy.com!

 
At 10:54 AM, Blogger dys said...

"Playstation Home will compete with his new company, so the PS3 is his enemy at the moment. With this as the backdrop, it's hard to lend any credence to his technical arguments."

Thanks mate, that's what I was wondering.

It's the same bullshit as Gabe Newell, a former Microsoft employee..

 
At 10:57 AM, Blogger Paul Cosgrove said...

Jesus, these comments are depressing.

I especially love the "you don't know what you're talking about" claims - being made about someone with PS3 development experience by a bunch of anonymous coward kids who haven't the first notion about software development.

Personally, I found this a really interesting article. I've just started working in the games industry (and I'm just lowly QA rather than a coder), but this kind of hardware tech stuff is fascinating, and having it described in this straightforward, non-PR way is really useful.

 
At 10:58 AM, Blogger Gina said...

OMG Thank you.... I've been saying all along that my PS3 isn't as good as my 360. People don't believe me. I have both systems on the same tv and I sware that the 360 beats the PS3 in graphics and load times.

 
At 10:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And Jason. Maybe next time. Instead using your experience developing GH/RB game. Which are hardly the pinnacle example of top end graphics. You should have posted this 8-9 months ago before there were great looking games on the PS3 (UT3, HS, R&C, Uncharted, KZ2).

Funny how it's always a disgruntled narrow-minded American view point that goes on these rants against Sony (Gabe). Hmmmm....

Patience grasshopper!

Blog of Booth = FAUX NEWS = SPIN

These whines usually take up internet space for the first 18 months of the Playstation life-span. It happened with the PS2. But life goes on.

 
At 11:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hahaha!! Oh dear! Maybe you should take a PS3 game development lesson from Insomniac, Ninja Theory, Infinity Ward, Free Radical and Guerilla Games.

They all seem to have absolutely NO TROUBLE with the PS3 development.

Lazy git!

 
At 11:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just wait until COD4 is released to see the "excellent" PS3 version... don't parrot the idiot previews from the same people who didn't notice last year that COD3 is 30 fps on the PS3 and 60 fps on 360.

 
At 11:02 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"in the trenches" LMAO

Maybe i would listen to you, if you were involved with games that actually require serious programming.

 
At 11:06 AM, Blogger alejos said...

It looks like you are a n00b level 2 criticizing n00b5 level 1.

Your comments are all opinion and no reason behind. Just opinion.

3 minutes wasted.

Go argue at the Ars Technica forums. I dare you.

 
At 11:07 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

your = you're

Other than that, I'm just trusting that the blogger knows more about videogame development than I do (which I'm sure he/she does).

More than I can say for the rest of my like.

 
At 11:08 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Though I studied music production in college, I eventually left to help start a game development company as a 3d artist (now known as Turbine). I've since taken up programing,"

Jason. Do us a favor. Stick to music production. Leave the programing to the real professionals.

 
At 11:15 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like somebody passed you the Microsoft kool-aid. Troll!

 
At 11:18 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

you're and ass and r&c rules, god bless Insomniac and real game developers who know what they are doing...you suck

 
At 11:26 AM, Anonymous Mark said...

very well said. i assume you knew that you would get bashed by a bunch of fanboys for speaking your mind and what you think of the ps3, but sometimes the truth pisses people off. i have a ps3 and a 360. i have 32 games for my 360 and 3 for my ps3. i love my ps3 for some of the things it can do, but great games is not one of them. a very informative blog. thanks.

 
At 11:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

my god, fanboys are out in full force. I'd believe a guy who actually works with the ps3 to develop then some bullshit some of you people read elsewhere which were prob posted by sony fanboys as well. Its also funny how u guys talk about how there are so many great looking ps3 games and then u name games that arent even out. You people need to get a clue and quit crying because someone said something bad about the ps3

 
At 11:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

your blog is spot on brotha! ps3=no good games. on a side note, it's easily explained that blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD 2 to 1....what else does an owner of a PS3 do other than watch movies with it? LOL.

 
At 11:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PS3 Graphics chip RSX

8 Render Output units
Maximum pixel fillrate: 4.4 GigaPixel per second (8 ROPs * 550 MHz)
Maximum Z sample rate: 8.8 GigaSamples per second (2 Z-samples * 8 ROPs * 550 MHz)
Maximum anti-aliasing sample rate: 8.8 GigaSamples per second (2 subsamples * 8 ROPs * 550 MHz)

360 Graphics chip Xenos

8 Render Output units
Maximum pixel fillrate: 4 gigapixel per second (8 ROPs x 500 MHz)
Maximum Z sample rate: 8 gigasamples per second (2 Z samples x 8 ROPs x 500 MHz), 32 gigasamples per second using 4X anti aliasing (2 Z samples x 8 ROPs x 4X AA x 500 MHz)[1]
Maximum anti-aliasing sample rate: 16 gigasamples per second (4 AA samples x 8 ROPs x 500 MHz)[1]


In conclusion you are full of BS.

 
At 11:36 AM, Blogger David said...

I expected to see insults in the comment section, it's the nature of fanboys, but the fact that 90% of these comments are from fanboys who don't know the first thing about programming saddens me.

 
At 11:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

lol, for a developer, you know absolutely fuck all mate.

 
At 11:37 AM, Blogger Chris said...

You're no Gabe Newell. Stop trying to be.

 
At 11:39 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ps2 had a much higher fillrate than both xbox and gc but that certainly didnt mean it was more powerful

"my god, fanboys are out in full force. I'd believe a guy who actually works with the ps3 to develop then some bullshit some of you people read elsewhere which were prob posted by sony fanboys as well. Its also funny how u guys talk about how there are so many great looking ps3 games and then u name games that arent even out. You people need to get a clue and quit crying because someone said something bad about the ps3"

even if he does indeed work on the ps3 his knowledge seems very limited at best. not to mention his obvious bias ("ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck") which makes his post just as irrelevant as any random fanboy post on the internet

 
At 11:39 AM, Anonymous BenjaminBirdie said...

Hey GAF, I'm the biggest JEW Shill on GAF. MS FTW, they pay my checks.

 
At 11:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

the comments section has already been found by sonyfags trying to justify their $599 talladega nights players

 
At 11:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dude I hate to say it but I think your Kung Fu is weak. When games like Metal Gear Solid 4 and Final Fantasy XIII come out, I think you will be eating your words.
Just because its different from the PC/360 Architecture does not at all mean its inferior. Maybe your right, but if I were to put a bet on it, I would bet that you just need more skill.

 
At 11:42 AM, Blogger steven said...

you most likely right about everything but remember, games sells consoles and if sony can make great games that will sell then i don't see any reasons why developers wouldn't want to work harder on it.

 
At 11:43 AM, Anonymous BenjaminBirdie said...

I love big black cocks in my ass. Cheers GAF.

 
At 11:44 AM, Blogger TrojanGuy said...

Why am I not surprised the Sony Defense Force has jumped down your throat over this and immediately claimed that (a) you don't know what you're talking about (b) games you make suck because your company doesn't have talented people and (c) Xbox 360 games like Halo 3 suck? I mean, obviously they know more about game design than you do since they've spent so much time creating games...

 
At 11:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think most of the Sony fanboys are mad because he is RIGHT! I have a PS3 and the truth is the games do not look as great as their 360 counterparts (ports included). Perfect example about sacrificing graphics for gameplay is Lair. This game was hyped up to be one of the killer apps for the PS3. I purchased this game and couldn't return it faster to my Gamestop! Another thing, for Call of Duty 4, the game runs great on both the PS3 and 360 but has about 2.5 times more data on the PS3 version. Some are saying the 360 version even looks better and sharper! As of now, I have about 3 games for my PS3 and about 25 games for my 360. If there is a choice between a PS3 version and a 360 version of a game, I'll choose the 360 version ten times out of 10 hands down.

 
At 11:52 AM, Anonymous K. Hamilton said...

You shot your self in the foot here my friend.
As a developer I understand the PS3 has problems as does the 360.
most of what you said is true to some extent.
I expected 100+ comments of fanboyism who know nothing of the industry we work in to post some garble about "my console has this game etc" and it was obvious they would post about your games.
But with that said I personally started work on the PS3 with my team and suffice to say at first it looked like we had our work set out for us but now we are finding ways to get past some problems on the ps3 to produce what I would call a more beautiful port than the 360 version of the game we are creating sadly our main problem is the Frame rate.
That said it really depends on your time scale, others from our company are having trouble making ports work due to the time they have been set.

 
At 11:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jesus Tapdancing Christ!
what a load of bullcrap!
kudos to you bro! you've lost my respect for eternity!

 
At 11:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

TrojanGuy: yeah just as surprising as the xbots riding to his defence because he bashes the ps3........

 
At 11:54 AM, Anonymous Marco Salvi said...

Don't have a lot of time so I'll keep it short:
1) fillrate -> while it's true that 360 has more raw fillrate than PS3, this is mostly relevant only when extremely simple shaders and alpha blending are involved (particles).
A few games successfully render particles at lower res on PS3 (well, on 360 as well, see Lost Planet)and almost no one can tell the difference.

2) shader processing being significantly slower on PS3 -> simply not true, having worked on both platforms I'm very well aware of that. Moreover comments like "which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360" makes me understand that you don't know very well how a modern GPU works. You don't need more fillrate to run a more complex shader; shader ALUs and ROPs have been decoupled for a few years now. What you wrote just doesn't make any logical sense here.

3)processing stuff on SPUs introduce extra latency -> simply false. It's a matter of how you want to implement it. You can do it introducing an extra frame worth of latency..or you can do it in a clever way..(ring buffering? :) )

4)The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3.. -> This is laughable at best. All best practices needed to improve performance on CELL are going to improve performance on 360 as well (in the general case..).
Are you telling me that keeping your dataset small, avoiding branchy code, re-organize your data structures so that you access them in a cache (or local stores) friendly way, etc.. is going to make some code run slower on 360? I would like to know why.. :)

Marco

 
At 11:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Jason, are you some kind of retard?

 
At 11:55 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Funny how no one comments on the other developers that say the exact opposite of this blog post. Why don't you trust them instead? Why trust this blog post? Specially when it comes from a guy that worked on GH and RB, games that are no wear near of reaching either 360 or PS3s potential.

You guys believe what's best for you right?... lol

 
At 11:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don’t believe any of these comments come from developers, and “quoting” large chunks of text from the blogg are not convincing anyone...If most of the fanboys hadn’t blown their years allowance on a PS3 you wouldn’t have to read so much pubescent frustration. At the center of it all is the pain from being out $600, seeing a price cut and hoping for AAA exclusives, why are you still defending Sony? Hopefully the blue-ray discs rented from blockbuster are worth it.

 
At 11:58 AM, Anonymous Hatchet said...

@Jintoh

I think you helped give a clearer picture than the guy posting the Article. It seemed to me he wanted to pick out the flaws of the PS3 and not give a rounded arguement or dicussion on developing for these consoles.....

I have to make a point. I would expect all development teams, 'build from the ground up' for PS3. I dont want to pay alot for Port. Im sure given time and effort from the developers, that the system will show its capabilities. You never know, you may find PS3 offers more scope, and that may excite you!!!

or you may just want to continue with what you know, and have an easy life.

I know i love a challenge!!

Can i ask those in the field, what is the problem with PS3 and framerates? it seem to be a continuous problem.....

 
At 12:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"In theory, sure, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors."

So where's the rant on how terrible the 360 is, *gasp* a multi-processor system. And if I'm not mistaken, that's exactly the course that PC's are taking as well. We better halt the presses and go back to that comfortable single processor architecture or else games will really start taking a turn for the worse :(

Last I checked, many of the PS3 ports from the 360 look just as good as the 360 version. There are some issues, but that is due to the fact that developers have not had time to properly understand how the PS3's architecture works.

Seems like you have some pretty sour grapes going here. Games like Heavenly Sword, Ratchet and Clank, Uncharted, and Motorstorm look as good if not better than most offerings on the 360. So how is that possible if the Playstation 3 is such a bust?

 
At 12:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I don’t believe any of these comments come from developer"

I know who Marco above is, I know his credentials and who he works for, and I love to see this guy engage him just to see him ripped to shreds :D

 
At 12:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gamesblow here... Just wanted to let you know I'm a smashing success and you can see me over at myspace.com/gamesblow... Really looking forward to it. Oh and Jason you're a ocmplete ANAL BEAD, dude. A total TWAT RASH, PUSY SQUIRT. PS3 is so powerful it went to the future and is now your boss. That's right... IT's actually issuing your checks as we speak... You stupid fuggin' CRICKET DICK.

 
At 12:02 PM, Anonymous $n!pR said...

If I wanted a comparison of PS3 vs. X360 hardware I'd read it from someone who actually knows something, not a graphics artist.

 
At 12:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And how many of you have ever programmed anything? Enough said...

 
At 12:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Check's in the mail, douchebag.
You're probably aware that many of your claims are flat-out false? Do you even *know* the fillrates of the two consoles, or is that still a little too far off for a rookie gameplay programmer?

 
At 12:06 PM, Anonymous myOpinion said...

As a Technical Artist, I've heard similar complaints from Engineers I've worked with. Another issue was that writing for the Cell was actually having to write two pieces of code instead of one, for the PPU and SPUs.

As troubling as Cell development is, I do think that multi-platform developers will refine their code base over time and Sony will offer better SDK solutions for some of these issues. 3rd party launch titles had little or no help from Sony...lazy developers no, but knew technology takes time to master.

And in defense of Harmonix, music games have to worry about performance just like all other genres. Can you imagine a music game having a fame rate dip and how disastrous that would be?

 
At 12:08 PM, Blogger Johann said...

Wow! Honestly you must have seen this coming. I just want to ask you a few questions because the points you have brought up are not new and actually have been debated.

Pixel Power: Are you Just comparing GPU to GPU or an overal system performance? How are you comparing this (you don't have to answer me if it breaks a NDA)


Game code - You say it doesn't split well. Is game code different from other code that has been modified to work on multicore processors?

Blu ray: Does your critizim of the speed tak into account the hard drive? If Naughty dog managed to pull their claim off about no loading times are you saying they probably did that using rplicated data only?


Research: Research done by who and is it to make a game perform like a 360 one or loof like one? The techniques Guerilla game's are using on Killzone 2 can be done on the 360's GPU alone?

And are you saying that the 360 has no functions to cover up flaws? It is a flawless console?

PS3 versions and exclusive comment: I am not a brilliant game dev but I must ask isn't one of the reasons why ports perform so badly is that they were built on the 360 architecture first and then modified to port over to the PS3? And wouldn't the quality of exlusives be an opinion?

Again this is not an attack but a questioning of methods and frame of mind. I have seen these arguments and what seems to be a sticking point is that "from the trenches" there must be multiple sides or angles to the issue and quite a few devs have become candid about it.

Is your point of view based off of the position and work that you do or is it more of an indicator of what devs across the globe have to deal with?

 
At 12:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=145154342&blogID=322604937&Mytoken=9E1848EC-35EF-4968-B1BF4D9DDF5BF07865512110

That's what I think of ya, dude. Gamesblow rules your world. You just lost money on the game you created. Hope you're happy. Gamesblow has a legion of people "myself included" that won't buy it on principal now.

 
At 12:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, the internet is filled with misinformation and anyone with a blog nowadays can make news. Its pretty obvious this guy may be frustrated but at the same time, he knows not what he says. Its a shame actually, blogging about something he knows very little about. "Fill rate" is only part of the equation when talking about graphics generation. I would actually be a bit embarassed about this all and recant my post if I were him. Poor soul.

 
At 12:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i have never even heard of ANY harmoniax games or harmoniax as a company. Now i may have seen them but apparently you dont know enough about gaming to actally MAKE A GREAT GAME...why the crap should i care what you think?

 
At 12:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This guy is a fucking fanboy, what a retard

 
At 12:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are we getting back to the days of my st is better than your amiga (owned an A 500 and 4000 but never bothered with this pathetic arguement) I own a ps3 and am the first to admit we need more high class games for it. I do use it to play both blue ray and dvd as it saves shelf space where my dvd player lived. I believe (hope) that it will suceed and better games will come but for gods sake stop being negative about systems that are different. Not all of us want to own a pc and run windows some of use like macs or linux and that doesnt make us stupid. Enjoy your system but dont think you have to slag of other hardware to make it more enjoyable.

 
At 12:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

DUDE ROCK BAND IS A RIP OFF OF GUITAR HERO!! Music Generator SUCKED A**

you have no idea how to make a good game without copying someone else do you?

You have no say in anything.

 
At 12:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Marco Salvi aka nAo is a well knowed sony fanboy, here at beyond3d
he spend half of his life trying to defend the ps3
just look at his post history
awesome

incredible how the sony defence force hit someone at his throat when he touch the ps3


what's wrong admitting that the ps3 is not a well thought architecture?

they are not talking 'bout your penis, it's a console!

 
At 12:18 PM, Blogger Robert said...

Wow, nothing like a MySpace blog to get your adolescent issues off your chest, huh?

 
At 12:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360."

OK, You are the developer, but I found that:

PS3

Maximum shader operations:100 billion shader operations per second ( 136 shader operations per clock cycle ).

X360

Maximum shader operations: 48 billion per second (2 ALU x 48 shader pipelines x 500 MHz)

And you cry for a faster drive, but there is the HDD in the PS3 instead of it!

So what?!!!

 
At 12:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh no, i have to sell my Ratchet&Clank AAA game with 60fps 1080p ultra impressive cause PS3 sucks!! ARGH!!


Please... keep these stupid article for yourself, is better ;)

 
At 12:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It seems like you know what you are doing. However, have you developed any ps3 games yet?

There's something call thinking outside the box.

As a developer, I think developers, specially game developers, need to come up with new way to program their games. I'm tired of the easy programming way.

Maybe it's true that 360 is better, like you said, but you really think exclusives on ps3 suck?

Look at Ratchet and Unchart, I don't think they are horrible at all. You think Heavenly Sword sucks?

Think about what you just posted. Next time, think before you do.

 
At 12:29 PM, Blogger Brian said...

Another lazy programmer heard from. Just how much does Bill Gates pay you anyway?

 
At 12:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You must have seen the demo of ratchet & clank that made you write this article at 4:44 am. The fact that when developers create platforms to work with the PS3 and achieve those types of graphics is keeping you up at night. Microsoft should sell an Xbox bundle that includes sleeping peels for people like you. Rest easy Xbox lover.

 
At 12:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i will never spend money on anything you have worked on....

 
At 12:41 PM, Blogger Overkill said...

You know I would believe you, but you are very biased and even someone with no knowledge of developing games can see that.

Tell me this, if you say it's not truley more powerful than the 360... why are they games on the PS3 like MGS4, GT5 and Uncharted? It's only the first year of the PS3 still, tell me what was out that looked so amazing on the 360 in it's first year?

I now see why you're a FORMER developer.... the industry is better off without dumbasses such as yourself.

 
At 12:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

cry baby

 
At 12:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

why is this subject even being brought up at this time, hasnt the 360 been out over a year longer then the PS3? the difference between the ports on each system is very small and really can only be seen when put next to each other. so in that respect the PS3 (only out for a year) looks just as good as a system out for over 2 years. looks like the 360 is on the downside to me.

 
At 12:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think the title on this post says it all

 
At 12:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good Read

 
At 12:52 PM, Anonymous Jintoh said...

We'll put Marco, it takes understanding and effort to solve problems, simply relying on what you know without evolving your knowledge is bad for how we engineers do things (although jason isn't really an engineer).

There are many unique ways to approach things and simple narrowing your views on how to approach something without trying something new (although this cames down to a resource claim again) tends to stagnate your approach to this industry.

To Hatchet:
You would be surprised I hear a lot of complaints from ex-mates from Europe that are having nightmares with the current establishment they are working with.

As to the frame problems its again a resource claim of putting an effort into the hardware to get the results out of it.

I won't point fingers cause its happen to me on a few occasions where I've had to cut my losses for the greater whole, as a engineer I want everything to run at 60fps with all the shiny things but sometimes it just isn't to be.

When making a game there are many complications from start to finish and really you aim for what you can given the resources, sometimes many devs will fire off there mouths and say we are aiming for the moon an give you peanut butter in that respect but many people have to understand from our perspective things change frequently.

With respect to the PS3 its all the complication complaining you hear about, devs aren't used to this hardware, its so "interesting" to us to use and screw with basically that we are just trying to find out how to use it so its beneficial.


Its something new to us as well and to say we can understand it off the bat is complete boogie cause we rightfully don't know the right ways to use it, we know ways sure but to use it, to really use it, that takes understanding which takes time and practice with the technology.

You would have heard a claim like this recently from one of the lads at ND working on Uncharted, we are all still playing with it to understand it better.

We aren't at the point where we can say we are using the PS3 (or 360) to its full extent, our industry is so unique that new approaches to things come along frequently to improve our ways to doing things, the difference from a start of a cycle generation to the end should show people this clearly but its the deluded amongst the community that clearly will never see this and just outright need a steel buckle belt across the balls.

I'll put it bluntly and honestly...

Gaming development is a profession that walks a line between insanity and pure genius.

 
At 12:54 PM, Anonymous Felix La said...

I'm by no means a fanboy, I love me some Wii and X360. But you can't expect to use last gen crap on a next gen system and expect the same results. He'll Harmonix's graphics are on par of (late) PS2 games. The only thing you guys have is innovation and you pretty much blew it to hell with Rockband (Who the hell is going to spend 180 on a game where they need atleast 5 other people in the same room to play?) If you understood the power of the PS3 and knew that it was meant for games that utilized its full power, then you wouldn't be angry at yourself for sucking.

 
At 12:59 PM, Anonymous XX said...

u 360 fanboy. u dont know what ur talking about. eat shit and die

 
At 12:59 PM, Blogger Adie said...

Lol.. hes n xbot. just ignore him

 
At 1:01 PM, Anonymous The Gamer's Gamer said...

Interesting read... As an owner of the PS3 and Wii and previous 360 owner I find all consoles are great in their own way. Truth be told 360 is great but at the end of the day PS3 should be greater simply because the 360 closer to reaching its climax in terms of visuals, AI, gameplay, etc. whereas PS3 has a long way to go which makes 360 games look better overall especially given the fact that PS3 often gets ports. Let's not forget the 360 has been out for 2 years and the PS3 only 1.

This is not about making excuses. Yes, 360 has more better games... yes, the 360 has the better looking multiplatform games most of the time. But to go and say its a better console and all that rah rah is going overboard and a tad bit of a oversimplified way of looking at a complex situation. The developer just laid down the facts as they are and I respect that. He didnt say PS3 sucks or 360 is better but simply seems to indicate that the CURRENT business environment makes it in developers best interest to invest in 360 rather than PS3 (for now). However, down the line those who learn and focus on learning the PS3 (while making great 360 games of course) will most likely do CERTAIN things that simply cannot be done on 360 due to the nature of the PS3 but this is a 3 to 4 years down the line type of deal.

The 360 and PS3 have two realities that its fans must realize. PS3 fans have to realize that its gonna be 3-4 years before PS3 games become clearly better than the 360. While 360 fans need to realize they will have to most likely start saving for the xbox 720 in 3 to 4 years (no a jab simply the truth).

To pull a Patchter, I predict in late 2009 due to a large PS2 base ready to transition towards mass market-friendly priced PS3 and the Playstation brand's international appeal the PS3 will have a user base 1.5 times the 360 install base. Xbox 720 will have "mysteriously leaked" specs sometime early 2009.

 
At 1:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love how people who only play games, actually try to dispute someone who actually makes games and deals with BOTH systems probably on a daily basis. You guys are laughable. Face it, the PS3 isnt that great of a system. And it has already been proven that most of those games that use more than what is supplied on a DVD like the Rachet and Clanks is due to audio, Rachet and Clank has over 10 gigs worth of audio on it. REALLY?!?!

 
At 1:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PS3 blows. Uncharted looks gorgeous, but will probably be low AA because of its clunky controls. Sony's hubris and pride will be their downfall this gen. Waiting longer for inferior ports is sad, and no self respecting gamer should stand for it.

 
At 1:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok Harmonix dev.(aka dumba$$) answer this one...

Why are some ports better on the ps3?? I heard dirt, oblivion, and Call of duty 4 all are better on the ps3.. This guy is talking out of his a$$.. He has no clue what he is talking about..

And why is heavenly sword, motorstorm, resistance, folklore, warhawk, and ratchet and clank all really awesome games???

And what games have you made for the 360 and ps3.. I think you were meaning any game Harmonix makes will likely continue to suck.. Instead of the ps3..

Dont be mad at sony that you guys are about to go out of business.. You piece of shi@

 
At 1:15 PM, Anonymous Makaze said...

I think most of you are missing the point. It's perfectly possible to make great looking games for the PS3, however due to it's architecture it's simply much more difficult. That's both due to some fundamentally poor design decisions and due to it's marked difference from other systems which we've got more experience with.

When we looked into working with the PS3 it was simply a cost/benefit analysis of the massive amount of work to learn and get things running well on the PS3 vs. the small return due to the low install base. It was a no brainer. That's not laziness, that's the reality of working with limited time and funding and the whole point the OP was making is that you're going to see a lot of studios making the same decision.

 
At 1:16 PM,